Web/Mobile Developer Moving from Kyiv to Poland

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Hello everybody,

My name is Alex, I'm a software developer from Kyiv, Ukraine. I apologize for writing in English on this forum, but my knowledge of Polish language is a bit limited. I understand the majority of what I hear or read, but I'm not really able to speak or write myself when it goes beyond basic sentences.

A little bit about my background:

I currently live in Kyiv, Ukraine. I'm 31 y.o. My education level is Ph.D. in Computer Science (my thesis is about distributed data storages performance optimisation). I have around 7 years of hands on experience developing web applications using LAMP, Drupal, Zend Framework, Wordpress, CodeIgniter, JavaScript, HTML/CSS. I have extensive experience with high load projects, queries optimisation, NoSQL databases etc. I'm also a Zend Certified Engineer (PHP 5.3).

Besides that during last year I've been developing mobile applications for iOS using Objective-C/Cocoa.

I'm planning to move to Poland by the end of this year and therefore my question is, how much could a software developer with my knowledge and experience make in Warszaw? Currently in Kyiv I make $3500 a month, could I expect to make something like that in Poland?

I tried to browse Polish job websites, but it seems to me that Polish employers tend not to mention salary in job ads, so I literally have no idea about what I can expect. Could you also please advise some good Polish job websites? I looked at http://www.pracuj.pl/ and http://www.monsterpolska.pl/, but I am sure there must be more out there.

Would it be possible to find a job without speaking Polish fluently? Of course I'm really willing to learn Polish. My first language is Ukrainian, which is quite similar to Polish, so I am sure in a few months I'll be able to speak it.

When it comes to languages I speak fluent English, Ukrainian and Russian, intermediate German, intermediate French and basic Polish.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice. I would appreciate answers in any languages :)

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  1. 3500$ gross or net? It is around 12000 PLN and for Senior Developer / Architect it is achievable (and with your experience you should aim for positions like that)
  2. Unfortunately polish employers usually don't write salaries, however you should find some here: http://4programmers.net/Forum/Praca (look for topics with high scores)
  3. If you can speak english fluently you should not have a problem with finding job.
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I apologize for writing in English on this forum, but my knowledge of Polish language is a bit limited.

And yet you've managed to post in the right subsection - this is something at which some of our Polish native speaker users fail miserably ;).

Currently in Kyiv I make $3500 a month, could I expect to make something like that in Poland?

Definitely.

I tried to browse Polish job websites, but it seems to me that Polish employers tend not to mention salary in job ads, so I literally have no idea about what I can expect.

We don't like it either. You can find some offers with advertised salary right here on our forums, e.g. http://4programmers.net/Forum/Praca/212088-7n_oferta_pracy_senior_java_developer. It's java, but expected work experience is close enough to your current earnings.

I think the pracuj.pl is the most popular site here, but if you don't want to apply for every job offer you can try your luck with some kind of job outsourcing agency, at least for the start. One of these posted an offer here not so long ago - http://connectis.pl or http://7n.pl, which posted the offer under the link above.

Would it be possible to find a job without speaking Polish fluently? Of course I'm really willing to learn Polish. My first language is Ukrainian, which is quite similar to Polish, so I am sure in a few months I'll be able to speak it.

Yeah, vast majority of IT professionals in big cities speak English, many of the dev teams (and I'd say especially in Warsaw) are international and English-speaking already. And speaking Polish isn't really necessary to live in Warsaw. I don't think you'll get pressurized by your future employee to learn it either (unlike in Germany). My former Spanish colleague lived here for 4 or so years with knowledge of 10 Polish words (at best).

Well, good luck!

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Shalom napisał(a):
  1. 3500$ gross or net? It is around 12000 PLN and for Senior Developer / Architect it is achievable (and with your experience you should aim for positions like that)

It is net, but income tax for IT contractors here is just 5% so there is not much difference between gross and net salaries for programmers in Ukraine.

Shalom napisał(a):
  1. Unfortunately polish employers usually don't write salaries, however you should find some here: http://4programmers.net/Forum/Praca (look for topics with high scores)

Thank you very much for the suggestion, I'll check it out.

Shalom napisał(a):
  1. If you can speak english fluently you should not have a problem with finding job.

Great, though I'm going to learn Polish anyway. For a Ukrainian speaker it should be easy.

Rev napisał(a):

I tried to browse Polish job websites, but it seems to me that Polish employers tend not to mention salary in job ads, so I literally have no idea about what I can expect.

We don't like it either. You can find some offers with advertised salary right here on our forums, e.g. http://4programmers.net/Forum/Praca/212088-7n_oferta_pracy_senior_java_developer. It's java, but expected work experience is close enough to your current earnings.

I think the pracuj.pl is the most popular site here, but if you don't want to apply for every job offer you can try your luck with some kind of job outsourcing agency, at least for the start. One of these posted an offer here not so long ago - http://connectis.pl or http://7n.pl, which posted the offer under the link above.

Thank you very much for the links. I'll take a look.

Rev napisał(a):

Well, good luck!

Thanks, I'm sure I'll need it :)

Overall how hard is it to find a job in Poland for an IT specialist? I recently read a blog of one Ukrainian software developer who moved to Warszaw last November. He wrote that he was looking for a job for more than 3 months taking into account that he was already in Poland and he had a work permit (Karta Polaka, I could also qualify for Karta Polaka as my grand mother was Polish, but unfortunately her documents that could prove so were lost during the WW2). Though he was applying for junior and middle positions and to be honest I am not aware of his area of expertise. Does it really take so long to find a job?

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@silversmith it does not and if he was looking for job so long, he either:

  • was really poor programmer
  • had expectations above his capabilities
    If you're still afraid, contact some outsourcing companies - they will find a job for you :)
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Rev napisał(a):

Currently in Kyiv I make $3500 a month, could I expect to make something like that in Poland?

Definitely.

Im not sure about that.
He would need offer (on contract ) that is close to 15k+VAT to get this 3.5k$.
Those salaries are for architects and managers (rarely seniors).
And i doubt that they can be achive by any mobile or php web developer.
But that only guess.(Im not from Warsaw)

btw.
@silversmith
Why you want to go from Kiev?

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Go to the jobs offers and sort it by grade (click on column "Głosów"). Best graded topics usually contains salaries. Some of them are in English.

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amd napisał(a):

@silversmith
Why you want to go from Kiev?

@amd

Well, there are several reasons. I would split them into 2 groups - 1) why leaving Kiev and 2) why Poland.

  1. Why leaving Kiev?
  • I travel a lot across Europe and I am really tired of spending time, nerves and money on applying for visas each time.
  • there are many things in Ukraine that make living not very pleasing, such as high corruption and crime rates
  • Continuously increasing level of pressure on business. I plan to start my own company but I am not crazy enough to do this in Ukraine.
  • Also our current president seems to be a light version of Lukashenko and Putin. The level of freedom is decreasing literally every day.
  1. Why Poland?
  • I am of Polish descent for at least 25% (my grandmother was Polish (Katarzyna Morozowska, daughter of Karol and Dorota Morozowski), however it might be even 50% as the ethnicity of my grandfather is unknown for sure, he was an orphan, lost his parents during WW1, but he comes from Lwow which at that time was a part of Poland. So I consider Poland as my native country the same as Ukraine.
  • I love Poland. I have been to your country many times (In Krakow, Wroclaw, Warszaw, Poznan, Gdansk etc) as a tourist and enjoyed it very much. I liked people, culture, architecture, national cuisine, nature, pretty much everything. Of course I realize that Poland isn't an ideal country (no country is ideal), but what I have seen so far seems to be very good and I think I would enjoy living in Poland
  • Me and my wife would like to live close enough to our families who will remain in Ukraine, because we would want to visit them several times a year
  • My wife is afraid of flying, so train is the only options for us. Bearing this and the above in mind Poland suits our needs really well.
  • Language in Poland is very similar to Ukrainian, so it would be really easy to integrate in the society, especially for my wife whose English isn't very good.
  • As I love travelling, Poland lays in the center of Europe very close to my usual destinations: Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Scandinavia.
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0x200x20 napisał(a):

Go to the jobs offers and sort it by grade (click on column "Głosów"). Best graded topics usually contains salaries. Some of them are in English.

@0x200x20

Thanks, I have already taken a look there. I'm not ready to move right now anyway, but I'm visiting poland in a couple of months. WIll try to arrange a couple of job interviews by those dates.

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Matko co za głupoty wy mu piszecie, gość zarabia w przełożeniu na złotówki 15 000 zł - taka pensja w przełożeniu na Warszawe gdzie są najwyższe pensje jest bardzo wysoka i tylko duże korporacje są w stanie to zaoferować. Powiem więcej znam rodzinę, w której mąż jest kierownikiem IT w dużej korporacji i zarabia 9000 zł netto, a jego żona jest lekarzem (lekarze zarabiają więcej od informatyków) pracującym prywatnie i ona zarabia 11 000 zł.
Gość żeby opłacała mu się przeprowadzka do Polski i tu praca powinien do tych 15 000 zł doliczyć jakieś dodatkowe 5 000 zł (bo przeprowadzka, opłacenie mieszkania itd.) czyli wychodzi 20 000 zł miesięcznie - już widzę jak znajdzie pracę w Polsce z taką pensją. Gość widać że zna bardzo dobrze angielski więc niech jedzie na Zachód wówczas to mu się opłaci, ale nie oszukujcie go, że znajdzie w Polsce pracę z taką pensją jak 20 000 zł.

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@anakondassssss, thanks for the input.

but as people noted it isn't just about money for me. If I wanted to earn more I would be looking to move to the USA or to the UK, or would even remain in Ukraine as in big companies a team lead or an architect can earn up to $4500 - $5000. But my main motivation has little to do with money. The only my concern about money is, that I wouldn't want the standards of life we are accustomed to to go down. In Ukraine I make $3500, but it could well have been $2500 without any significant changes in our lifestyle.

I'm comparing cost of living in Poland and in Kiev and it seems to me that in general cost of living in Poland (except Warsaw) is about 20-30% lower than in Kiev. So I think i am pretty much ok with earning something like 2000-2500 (of course I would welcome more:) but it isn't an ultimate condition).

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really warsaw is cheaper than kiev? minimal wage in ukraine is 1218UAH(323zl), average is 3189 UAH (846zl). in poland minimal is 1,680zl, average is 4017,75zl . How do you make for livin with lowest salries and higer prices than in pl? i think you r lookin for some naive idiot, wholl confirm yr polish heritage thats why u wrote bout yr grandmom-or prob you even didnt have polish g-mom, just like man ukrainians, you cooked up the story coz for get the Card u need one person who ll confirm that u had a Pole in yr family-how easy it is? :)

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Numbeo seems to disagree with prices in PL being lower than in Kiev:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ukraine&country2=Poland&city1=Kiev&city2=Warsaw
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ukraine&country2=Poland&city1=Kiev&city2=Poznan

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Poznan are 26.00% higher than in Kiev
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Wroclaw are 30.20% higher than in Kiev
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Krakow (Cracow) are 24.75% higher than in Kiev

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Czym bardziej skorumpowane państwo tym więcej dostaje się pod stołem, więc jeśli oficjalnie średnie zarobki w Kijowie to 846zl, to w rzeczywistości pewnie jest 2 x tyle. Jest jeszcze ważna kwestia podczas porównywania cen w różnych krajach, że często nie jest zwracana uwaga na jakość. I tak oficjalnie w Polsce średnia cena ubrań jest tańsza niż w Wielkiej Brytanii, ale jeśli porównywałoby się średnie ceny markowych ubrań, to prawdopodobnie jest odwrotnie. Numbeo radzi sobie z tym trochę lepiej, bo pisze, że chodzi o ceny w Zarze "1 Summer Dress in a Chain Store (Zara, H&M, ...) "

Poza tym kurs hrywny spadł w stosunku do złotego w ostatnich 6 miesiącach o 30%, więc pół roku temu pewnie Kijów był droższy także wg Numbeo.

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Prices in Kiev WERE really higher than in Poland at the time of writting of initial post. But at that time it was around 8 UAH for 1 USD. Right now it is around 12 UAH for 1 USD. As you all well know due to recent events in Ukraine hryvnia has lost almost half of its value. The prices though didn't change much (in hryvnias). Therefore calculating in dollars or zloty Kiev has recently became indeed cheaper than Poland.

Partytime napisał(a):

really warsaw is cheaper than kiev? minimal wage in ukraine is 1218UAH(323zl), average is 3189 UAH (846zl). in poland minimal is 1,680zl, average is 4017,75zl . How do you make for livin with lowest salries and higer prices than in pl? i think you r lookin for some naive idiot, wholl confirm yr polish heritage thats why u wrote bout yr grandmom-or prob you even didnt have polish g-mom, just like man ukrainians, you cooked up the story coz for get the Card u need one person who ll confirm that u had a Pole in yr family-how easy it is? :)

In Kiev nobody works for minimal wage. I'd say that average salary in kiev is around 5000-6000 UAH. But for the rest of Ukraine your numbers are more or less. Most people are barely surviving.

Your theory about me looking for somebody to prove my polish heritage is absolutely groundless. First and foremost because you're totally wrong if you think that a confirmation from a polish citizen might give somebody this card. To obtain Karta Polaka one need to provide a documental evidence. Anybody's words not only not enough but also not needed.

And to relocate to Poland I don't really need a Karta Polaka. Last autumn I had a job offer from a Polish company for 12 000 PLN (brutto), but declined it :) I choose to stay in Ukraine and fight the tyrany. And now I am not going to leave ukraine. As a reserve officer of Ukrainian army I have volunteered to serve and now waiting for mobilisation order to join the troops on the East of my country and protect it from Russians. Best of luck.

Darck napisał(a):

Czym bardziej skorumpowane państwo tym więcej dostaje się pod stołem, więc jeśli oficjalnie średnie zarobki w Kijowie to 846zl, to w rzeczywistości pewnie jest 2 x tyle. Jest jeszcze ważna kwestia podczas porównywania cen w różnych krajach, że często nie jest zwracana uwaga na jakość. I tak oficjalnie w Polsce średnia cena ubrań jest tańsza niż w Wielkiej Brytanii, ale jeśli porównywałoby się średnie ceny markowych ubrań, to prawdopodobnie jest odwrotnie. Numbeo radzi sobie z tym trochę lepiej, bo pisze, że chodzi o ceny w Zarze "1 Summer Dress in a Chain Store (Zara, H&M, ...) "

Poza tym kurs hrywny spadł w stosunku do złotego w ostatnich 6 miesiącach o 30%, więc pół roku temu pewnie Kijów był droższy także wg Numbeo.

Masz rację że wielu ludzi dostają pensję na czarno, ale w Kijowie średni zarobki są wyżej niż w innych miastach Ukrainy. Moim zdaniem w Kijowie średni zarobki są ok. 1300 - 1600 PLN.

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To Web Developer oraz Mobile Developer (w jednym) może zarabiać 3500 dolarów miesięcznie? To co trzeba umieć, żeby tyle zarabiać jako zwykły programista? Ja po 4 latach pracy jako programista .NET mam 2000 złotych netto we wschodniej Polsce :(

So Web Developer and Mobile Developer (in one) can earn $3500 per month? What you need to know to earn such money as a usual programmer? I have after 4 years of working as a programmer .NET 2000 zloty net per month in eastern Poland :(

Also Web-Entwickler und Mobile Developer (in einem) kann $3500 im Monat verdienen? Was müssen Sie wissen, damit Sie so viel Geld als eine normale Programmierer verdienen können? Ich verdiene nach 4 Jahren Arbeit als Programmierer .NET 2000 zloty netto im Monat in Ostpolen :(

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Tome dziwne bo ja w Rzeszowie java/html/css/js/bash/linux/mysql/mongodb/redis mam ze wszystkim 4k na reke.

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tomeknowak napisał(a):

To Web Developer oraz Mobile Developer (w jednym) może zarabiać 3500 dolarów miesięcznie? To co trzeba umieć, żeby tyle zarabiać jako zwykły programista? Ja po 4 latach pracy jako programista .NET mam 2000 złotych netto we wschodniej Polsce :(

So Web Developer and Mobile Developer (in one) can earn $3500 per month? What you need to know to earn such money as a usual programmer? I have after 4 years of working as a programmer .NET 2000 zloty net per month in eastern Poland :(

Na Ukrainie takie zarobki programisty z dużym doświadczeniem nie są czymś dziwnym.

Możesz sam sprawdzić:

http://jobs.dou.ua/salaries/ (niestety dostępne tylko w języku rosyjskim)

Mediana dla seniora jest $3600. Oprócz tego na Ukrainie zarobki liczą się zawsze tylko netto.

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